Hi there,

　Some ideas:

−　The rating system is esentially pointless as the words continue to pop up. Why not have a methord of partitioning them into 'got it' 'so so' etc so that the ones we continuly make mistakes on will be more frequent?

− Need to have a reading component so that the words are seen in context. I'm 100% that would improve peoples retention rates.

cheers,

p.s this is for the Japanese side of the site :)

"The rating system is esentially pointless as the words continue to pop up. Why not have a methord of partitioning them into 'got it' 'so so' etc so that the ones we continuly make mistakes on will be more frequent?"

That's what an SRS (spaced repetition system) does, which Skritter is using. What makes you think it might not be the case ?

Skritter already does that and a lot more. The scheduling system is pretty involved, but I trust it to do the most efficient job possible. It's certainly better than anything else available.

I'm not sure about the reading in context. Ideally you want to be able to recognise the word without any prompt except the word.

It is important to read real material though, to learn collocations etc., but I think that's easy enough to get elsewhere. Skritter doesn't do everything, but what it does do it does very well. I think it should stay that way.

@ MW

That's what an SRS (spaced repetition system) does, which Skritter is using. What makes you think it might not be the case"

Do you use it for Japanese? the SRS in non-functional, so essentially your paying for flashcards on a monthly basis as opposed to a one off fee. If you like burning money then by all means.. (O_o)

I just can't see the point in paying for something that is essentially the same as SmartFM, except the later is free.

Of course the SRS for Japanese is functional. What problem are you having with it?

The only part which isn't SRS is the scratchpad, and that's just bit on the side.

"Skritter already does that and a lot more. The scheduling system is pretty involved, but I trust it to do the most efficient job possible. It's certainly better than anything else available. "

Not really, see above.


"I'm not sure about the reading in context. Ideally you want to be able to recognise the word without any prompt except the word. "


? When does ones one ever read a word in isolation? That's nonsensical.



"It is important to read real material though, to learn collocations etc., but I think that's easy enough to get elsewhere. Skritter doesn't do everything, but what it does do it does very well. I think it should stay that way."


Again in comparison to what? All of the Skitter functions can be found elsewhere for free. What is the justification for paying a monthly fee if all it does is provide a flashcard prompt with writing practice? Need to think outside the box my friend.

'Of course the SRS for Japanese is functional. What problem are you having with it?

The only part which isn't SRS is the scratchpad, and that's just bit on the side.'

If you rate a word forgotten, it will appear as frequently as the ones you rate as easy. so no, it does not 'work'.

Tenma -

Why do you say the SRS is non-functional for the Japanese side? I use it for Japanese only and see definite evidence that scheduling is active.

Even if you rate a word a 3 you will still see the word a couple more times because one of the schools of thought accompanying SRS usage is that you need to see it several times for it to become fully lodged in your brain.

It's possible you haven't given it enough time to fully see the effects of the scheduling. 3 hours is something like a week of studying, I'm guessing. Give it time!

Also, referring to a sidenote of yours, I didn't think SmartFM was free. I looked it up a while back and it's a subscription-based service.

Well, as a native speaker of a language, you should be able to expect to recognise a word anywhere. If I said I was fluent in English, and somebody showed me a piece of paper with just "printer" written on it, I'd be quite embarrassed if I couldn't recognise it. And I'd imagine native speaker level is the direction every learner is trying to head in, even if they never make it that far or don't intend to.

Even if you never see a word devoid of context, learning it that way means that you'll recognise it in any context (i.e. in any sentence). No matter how many sentences you learn it in, you could still be using the other parts of the sentence as prompts for that word.

Yes, you could achieve Skritter functionality with a combination of other things. I could achieve the functionality of a car by getting a bike and training intensively for months. What you're paying for with Skritter is to have a lot of stuff done for you automatically (and I mean a lot). It saves a lot of time, and lets you spend your study time learning rather than organising.

Also, I'm starting to wonder if we have our first troll on the Skritter forums. Good work if you are, apologies for the aspersion if not...

"If you rate a word forgotten, it will appear as frequently as the ones you rate as easy. so no, it does not 'work'."

It's not the case for me when studying Chinese. May be one of the Skritter guys can enlighten us if there's a different approach regarding studying Japanese. (I would not expect that to exist.)

Well, as a native speaker of a language, you should be able to expect to recognise a word anywhere. If I said I was fluent in English, and somebody showed me a piece of paper with just "printer" written on it, I'd be quite embarrassed if I couldn't recognise it. And I'd imagine native speaker level is the direction every learner is trying to head in, even if they never make it that far or don't intend to.

Great example. When was the last time you saw that happen?, never? But if your goal is to play 'guess that word' at work then so be it. I'd preferably like to read emails, type on forums, read books/newspapers etc.

Your bike example is terrible. If your going to give an example, best to think it though. Please look up the meaning of functionality; you can even add it to your word list! It will help you a lot. (I mean a lot).

GL

"If you rate a word forgotten, it will appear as frequently as the ones you rate as easy. so no, it does not 'work'."

Skritter has different parts. Eg, writing, definition. Perhaps you've marked the writing as easy, and then seen the definition for the same word come up later? Skritter treats the different parts separately, they have their individual scheduling. If you find the definition easy too, then you have to tell it so.

Other than that, I can't think what the problem would be. But Skritter's SRS does work, and it's very effective. There is a huge difference between marking something forgotten and something easy.

Also, referring to a sidenote of yours, I didn't think SmartFM was free. I looked it up a while back and it's a subscription-based service.

Maybe those who started training on it get it free. I haven't paid anything. You are right though....

If you rate a word forgotten, it will appear as frequently as the ones you rate as easy. so no, it does not 'work'."

Skritter has different parts. Eg, writing, definition. Perhaps you've marked the writing as easy, and then seen the definition for the same word come up later? Skritter treats the different parts separately, they have their individual scheduling. If you find the definition easy to, then you have to tell it so.

Other than that, I can't think what the problem would be. But Skritter's SRS does work, and it's very effective. There is a huge difference between marking something forgotten and something easy.


I'm not using the writing function as JPLT N4 is multiple choice, but thanks for the pointer.

@ your first suggestion:

If you've read all the information at 'help', and the things that you want the system to do but you're feeling it's not doing it correctly according to what is described in 'help', maybe you can contact the staff personally first (as your suggestion is supposed to work...).

The Chinese SRS works fine as far as I can tell. I agree that maybe you need to give it some more time, I would think the SRS is the same for both Chinese and Japanese. If this is the case, maybe you feel the words that are easy for you still pop up too frequently, it should go away for an even longer period of time by grading it as 'too easy'.

More time is definitely needed to see the SRS working. I remember when I first started it was tightly packed, but now things are nicely spaced out.

The writing function is one of the main advantages and selling points of Skritter in my opinion. To help with the tedious task of writing is also why it was created I believe. If you can write it on Skritter recognizing it will be a piece of cake.

Pretty sure this is a troll.

Skritter's spaced repetition definitely works, but it's definitely harder to see it in action early on in your studies.

And yes, as has been mentioned above, there are other ways to achieve the functionality of Skritter, but Skritter's a legitimate option, particularly insofar as it brings together a certain function set that isn't directly replicated anywhere else. I know people who study Chinese with SRS outside of Skritter and I know people who successfully study Chinese without SRS at all, but I for one am very happy with Skritter's services.

As far as reading goes, I agree, reading in context is a great boon to the language learner. On the Chinese side, there are example sentences for a lot of the words - they're far from ideal and the Japanese side doesn't have any yet as far as I know, but Skritter's still a work in progress, so those things will be improved/implemented in time. Overall, Skritter's only a secondary source of reading practice - that's an area where Skritter's lacking because it's not really a function of the service so you're better off looking elsewhere for that part of your studies.

I concur with 葛修远.

Why do we think you are a troll? Just look at your comments June 7th, 2011 9:11p.m. That sarcasm and plain rudeness was really uncalled for. You can disagree with someone without doing such things. For starters he is studying Chinese where usually there is one meaning and one reading per hanzi. Where as Japanese require GDFC (God Dam Fucking Context) to know it's meaning and reading. On June 7th, 2011 9:15p.m. you wrote you don't use the writing function because it isn't required on the JLPT. But Skritter was built for writing first and everything else came latter. So by not using the writing section you are not even coming close to experiencing what makes Skritter so very special. I know it's not required for the JLPT but by practicing to write kanji I have found my ability to recognize them goes way up and I have gained a new skill. You really should experience Skritter's writing functionality. It combined with SRS and mnemonics makes a great learning experience. If it wasn't for the writing section I wouldn't be using Skritter.

You keep insisting that the SRS is broken even after everyone else told you it isn't and it takes time. Did you consider that Skritter treats the same kanji as a different word if you see it with different readings. 本 for example can have 3 different readings and is treated as 3 different kanji.

本 ホン, もと: book; present; main; true; real; counter for long cylindrical things
本 ほん: book; volume; counter for long things
本 もと: origin; source; base; foundation; cause; ingredient; trunk

By the way Smart.fm was free but now it's now a paid service called iKnow. You can still find the old decks (put there when they were free) in Anki but I'm not sure using them is exactly 100% legal now.

I'm not convinced he's a troll. His first message just looked confused about the SRS and he did suggest more context, which is something the Skritter guys are already working on. (AFAIK example sentences are not yet available in Japanese.)

After that I think he got his back up, thus the argumentative tone.

I'm not saying it's appropriate behavior, just that it's not obvious to me that he's a troll.

James

Not a troll, just annoyed that people who use the Chinese side of things are replying with such certainty about what happens on the Japanese side.

@fatdragon Thanks for the relevant answer.

@葛修远 why post if you have no idea about the Japanese side?


I think $9.99 is a lot for the service they provide. I was suggesting something that would change it from a good but overpriced service, to one that would really expand on what is possible with online tech.

@Tenma13 I understand your reluctance to trust information from the Chinese side of things as it might not perfectly match with the Japanese side of things, but in relation to the SRS most of us see absolutely no reason why it would be different for the Chinese and Japanese sides. Of course things like pinyin and tones aren't going to translate, but it would be a bit silly for the Chinese side of Skritter to have full SRS functionality, and the Japanese side to have none.

I agree with James that it doesn't seem like you are a real troll, but bear in mind your argumentative tone (as it is being perceived by many of us) is making you look like one to many.

If you have a problem with the SRS not working, I suggest you send an email to the Skritter team describing the problem so they can help you out. The continuation of this thread probably won't help at all and will just lead to a flame war.

Tenma13, I'd be happy to take this to email to figure out what's going on with your scheduling where it seems that it's not working--just use the contact link at the bottom.

We are also planning on adding example sentences for Japanese to get some more context in there, but for right now we just have them for Chinese. Still, Skritter won't be a one-stop-shop for learning word context--ideally you'd pair it with some other source of acquiring words, whether it be lessons, textbooks, immersion, reading stuff, podcasts, or whatever.