Did the required stroke order of 方, and all characters containing it, change recently? I am pretty sure I used to write the left leaning vertical stroke third, but now skritter seems to expect to find it in the fourth position. Am I imagining things? If not, is there a way of returning things to the way they were before?

I noticed also - actually, I think that technically this new way is the official stroke order (but always find it weird myself).

This is happening in the app too. Is this really the official stroke order? It seems so awkward.

I think the left leaning stroke should be fourth. That's what the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary says too (and the apps on my iOS devices).

I'm learning Japanese. Might there be a stroke order difference between Japanese and Chinese?

I found this too but thought I'd imagined it after a long break!
MDBG agrees with the current order (left leaning stroke last).

The left stroke in the fourth postion is the official stroke order. I did some quick research and here is what I found. Based on this logic the new order seems to make sense, but it might take some time to get used to.

在1997年4月7日，国家语委和中华人民共和国新闻出版署发出了关于发布《现代汉语通用字笔顺规范》的联合通知，要求就7000个通用字的笔顺进行规范。他们在编写小学语文教材时，就按照规范要求更正了“方”字的笔顺。钱先生说，方字的笔顺同“力”、“刀”等一样，最后一笔应该是“撇”。如写“方”字时，钩上来以后，正好写下来最后一撇，这也符合汉字书法书写的艺术规律。

所以：“方”字的笔顺为点、横、横折钩、撇。

A basic summary is that after a policy decision in 1997 the stroke order for 方 was changed to have the falling stroke last. This way 方 follows with the stroke order of 力 or 刀 with the left sweeping stroke being written last. Also, having the stroke order this way coincides with the calligraphy style of writing this character.

Haha, I just had this realization myself 2 days ago, and it played out on facebook. My Chinese name is 万, and after using skritter I realized I've been writing it wrong for six years now! Guh.

No matter, I says, I'm going to Taiwan, so I'll write it in fanti... 萬. I felt pretty satisfied with myself... until a Taiwanese friend said most people use 万 in Taiwan as well.

Well, at least now I know why it always looked wrong when I wrote it...

One can't escape using 万 by moving to Taiwan. 万 is a fanti, and 万俟 is a surname.

We are just lucky that we have the chance to know how to write these 方、万 and 火 correctly. Consider those zillion of poor Chinese who have died in the past few hundred years, writing all these characters wrongly for their whole life without knowing it.

oh it's happening to 游 now. who moved my cheese?

Seems they've changed a few things. Try writing 数shu4 using the scratchpad.

http://www.skritter.com/scratchpad?words=%E6%95%B0

I am glad I am not imagining things. I would rather continue writing 方 the way I used too in the last few years, even if it now not the "official" ordering of the strokes.

The stroke order of 数shu4 in the scratchpad (writing the horizontal stroke of 女 last) seems weird and, as far as I can say, wrong.

Agreed that the new stroke order for 数 seems very weird, particularly that the horizontal stroke of 女 is the very last to be completed. I assume someone has submitted a character feedback through their system?

@icebear, yes, I did. I just thought it was strange that I saw it the same time as this stroke change post.

@女 stroke order, seems like it's demanding the japanese stroke order

http://kakijun.main.jp/page/0322200.html

Yes, I noticed this too, and it's really annoying. Is there no way to allow for both? Or at least a "soft" criticism of getting the wrong stroke order? When I write 门, for instance, I write the shu before the dian, which apparently I'm not meant to, and Skritter grumbles and flashes the dian to indicate its displeasure, but otherwise lets me proceed to write my character unmolested. But it's really picky about enforcing this weird (but concededly orthodox) stroke order for 方, and often won't let me write the character at all unless I do it its way. I was never really clear on how the stroke order system worked from a technical standpoint, but is there any way to relax this a bit?

@dbkluck, I think in most cases strict stroke order is important, especially characters with fewer strokes. In the case of 门 it's good to know the proper order. After all taking shortcuts on easier characters develops bad habits for the more difficult ones containing those characters down the road. In the case of 数 it just appears to have been accidentally changed to the wrong order.

As for 万 and 方, I noticed it but quickly switched over so didn't ponder over it for too long.

George will fix 数 soon. He has many things going on right now.

Pts, why is it not the same with 厉 then?

@aharlekyn I don't understand your question.

With 万 the left sweeping stroke is last, but with the 万 in 厉 the right hook stroke is last.

Maybe it is just an omission in Skritter?

I've just checked with 厉. It allows you to write it both ways. But the show button will write the right hook before the left sweeping stroke.

I prefer this relaxing of the stroke order.

Hmmm. Ok. But why the relaxing of the strictness in the one but not the other?

Had me confused for a while. I also prefer the relaxing of the stroke order. But I suppose its good to learn the right way.

We are in the process of converting them to accept only the one order. If you see one that's been missed, send a stroke order feedback from the study page. For more info, you can always check George's stroke order research page:

http://www.skritter.com/stroke-research

Wait, so it previously accepted both, but you're "in the process of converting" it to accept only one? May I ask why?

In the case of 方, at least, it seems that reasonable minds can differ on this. Based on the comments to the link George referenced above, http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/39476437, as well as several other Chinese forums, it seems a good number of Chinese were taught the other way. Anecdotal inquiry of Chinese people I know again shows plenty of people who write the pie first.

I know for me this has been a really annoying change, for seemingly no point. Is there seriously a compelling reason to eliminate a technically non-standard but common usage, especially one that's ingrained in the muscle memories of many native writers, much less skritterers? I am not persuaded that bringing myself into conformity with the State Language Commission's 1997 "policy decision" is important enough that it merits unlearning a habit shared by the millions of Chinese who welter in ignorance of the Commission's decree to no apparent ill effect.

In a year and a half of participating in the forum, I've seen many complaints and feature requests, but I can't seem to recall anyone requesting that Skritter become more pedantic about stroke order. Why are you doing this now? I'm very curious as to the decision process that led to the conclusion that of all the things about Skritter that need changing, stroke order was the one that should be the priority.

dbkluck: Well put!

I don't think that serious damage to humanity would be caused if people that used to write the pie3 （撇） first would continue to do so.

While the prior two posts are right that it isn't the end of the world if this one character doesn't abide by the official stroke order... let's not get melodramatic. It took about 2 missed attempts before I realized it had change, and now its no problem at all. Just because something is habit doesn't make it right; if I'm investing hundred of hours into learning Chinese characters I'd like for it to be as standard as possible.

icebar: It is indeed not the end of the world. Still 2 missed attempts, and some confidence shaken, for a lot for users is a lot of time wasted.

There might be other characters (or character components) with a similar status, and I certainly don't want to see them all "corrected" in a similar manner, without any prior notice, as far as I know. That's why I initiated this topic :-)

A long time ago Skritter used to accept three different stroke orders for 女. I forget which one I used to use, but when they made the stroke order more strict all of a sudden I had to retrain my hand for all the characters that used that radical. It was initially annoying but when I started trying to use the "new" stroke order it took me all of a couple of days being strict with myself to switch over.

If you take a look at http://www.skritter.com/stroke-research you'll see that, when there are legitimate differences between authorities, Skritter allows multiple stroke orders. For example,there's a different order in Taiwan for 忄 so they allow either order. Has anyone found an authority (dictionary or national standards body) that disagrees with what SkritterJake posted?

James

I think that the research on 方 in http://www.skritter.com/stroke-research is not extensive enough. I am pretty sure all the written books I started learning from had the left leaning stroke second. I will try to dig them up.

So far, I managed to locate "A Key to Chinese Speech and Writing", Volume 1, by Joël Bellassen and Zhang Pengpeng, Sinolingua, ISBN 7-80052-507-4. On page 68 it clearly shows the left leaning stroke being written second.

@swimming Zhang Pengpeng is nothing to sneeze at, of course, being from BLCU.

Still, in the case of education on a topic like stroke orders I think it's a better strategy to follow official or authoritative sources - they shouldn't have to consult a hundred textbooks from as many authors to find a consensus; the dictionaries they've listed as sources are very widely respected.

Here are three more written sources that have pie second:

Practical Chinese Reader, Elementary Course Book 1, The Commercial Press Ltd., 2003, ISBN 962-07-4051-3. page 342

Read and Write Chinese, Fifth Edition, 1990, by Rita Mei-Wah Choy, China West Books, ISBN 0-941340-11-2. p. 143.

Reading and Writing Chinese, Eighth Printing, 1994, by William McNaughton, Turtle Language Library, ISBN 0-8048-1583-6. p. 103.

Can anyone check the "New Practical Chinese Reader"? I only have the more advanced books in this newer series.

I think that these examples show that there is no consensus regarding 方.

If I were to start learning now, I would have no moral objection to writing the pie third. But, many users are used to writing the pie second, as this is how they were taught, and I see no great need to convert them.

Alas, malaili2, in that entire diatribe, I can agree only with the first clause of your final sentence.

@dbkluck, swimming

I think you're still ignoring the point that Skritter has 5-6 authoritative sources they consult. If there is a consensus/near consensus there, they go with it. Its a transparent process.

Just because some books are teaching the *wrong* stroke order doesn't all of a sudden make it correct! I personally prefer learning it the correct way, and for Skritter to encourage me to do so.

malaili2: They (supposedly the Chinese government) designed them, so they can change them (correct the stroke order)?

icebear: I am not ignoring the fact that Skritter consulted 5-6 authoritative sources. The fact is that these are all electronic sources and even among them there is _no_ consensus. (There is a clear majority, but not a consensus.) The point I am making is that in all the _written_ sources I consulted there seems to be a consensus for writing the pie second.

The textbooks I have are indeed old. Can someone look up what stroke order for 方 appears in newer books, e.g. NPCR (New Practical Chinese Reader)? It must there somewhere.

I think that at some stage it was possible to choose between a strict stroke order and a loose stroke order. I can't seem to find this option now. Isn't that the real answer?

@swimming "I think that at some stage it was possible to choose between a strict stroke order and a loose stroke order. I can't seem to find this option now. Isn't that the real answer?"

I agree on this point - that would indeed solve the issue for both sides. There is an option in the iOS app for strictness: "Stroke Order: XX%"

malaili2:

1) Most elementary text books _do_ show stroke orders.

2) New Practical Chinese Reader does show stroke orders. And, surprise, surprise, on p. 105 of Workbook 1, they teach they poor readers to write the 丿third, and not last. Shocking! (ISBN 7-5619-1042-8)

3) I admire your desire for "strict strictness". I am not sure, however, why you insist that everyone else would follow suit.

4) You are right. 现代汉语通用字笔顺规范 is not electronic.

5) In addition to learning Chinese, you may also want to learn that you don't win an argument by saying that your opponent arguments are asinine and moronic.

We try to support multiple stroke orders when multiple are valid, but every time we do this, it poses a problem because then Skritter users won't be able to learn the most correct variant. We have done this with several stroke order variations before, after users have pointed out holes in our research, and private feedback has been positive. So in cases where it's either unanimous or very lopsided, we are moving towards accepting only one order. It's only in cases where multiple orders are widely accepted that we do multiple orders.

Help in researching sources as to whether 方/万 should accept multiple orders is appreciated. This thread has me waffling--many extra sources all around. Good research, guys.

However, please be nice. I will delete any posts containing uncivil bits. (This will make further replies look hallucinatory, so it helps to avoid responding to enmity.)

I think Nick makes a good point; Skritter is very useful in that it teaches the most standard way to write.

I learned to write 99% of my characters from Skritter. I am pretty sure I learned from Skritter to write the piě 丿 as the 3rd stroke. If Skritter had the standard stroke order, I would have learned the correct way. I think for future users, it's probably better to follow the standard way.

Also, it can be a little emotional when labels like "correct" and "wrong" are applied to conventions in language. English does not have a formal authority that promulgates correct usage, but other languages do, such as Spanish and French. Yes it can be a little absurd when most people use a convention, but the official authority offers a different one.

Finally, while my sympathies are with writing the piě 丿 as the 3rd stroke, I think the sources you're offering are a little weak, because they are derivative. I would not accept an English textbook written for Chinese students as an authority on English grammar. If there are original academic sources written for native speakers, such as dictionaries, that list that stroke order, I'd be more convinced.

I personally think the piě 丿 should be the 3rd stroke, because of the left --> right principle in stroke order. 力 does not really relate to 方 in my opinion because the 横 in 力 starts all the way at the very left. A good example is 车. When it appears as a character, the 竖 is last, but when it appears as a radical (轿), the 竖 is 2nd to last. Even though they look similar, there is enough difference to warrant changing the order.

atdlouis:

NCPR is not that weak. It is a recent, one of the most widely used textbooks for teaching Chinese, and it is published by BLCU, the "officially appointed" university for teaching Chinese to foreigners. If they have 丿 third, then even if it not the "correct" way, it must be a valid variant.

I am glad to hear that your sympathies are with 丿 third. Why shouldn't you be allowed to keep on practicing this habit?

I also agree with your comments about "correct" and "wrong" in languages. If skritter wants to be "correct", it should simply adopt 现代汉语通用字笔顺规范, without bothering to look at other sources.

swimmming,

NPCR has been around for decades. Do you have the NPCR 2nd edition workbook? It was published in 2010, and is completely updated. I would be curious to know the stroke order in there.

Integrated Chinese, the other "big" Chinese textbook series, uses the "official" stroke order.

atdlouis: The edition of NPCR I cited was published in 2002. I am afraid I don't have access to the newer edition. I am also curious to see what stroke order it has for 方.

Nick: Which other stroke orders are you planning to change in the (near) future?

Lest there be any confusion, allow me to clarify the position of the pie-firsters. No one here is suggesting that official stroke order be rejected. Skritter should of course accept the official order. Furthermore, for new users learning the character for the first time, the stroke-by-stroke animation help should show the hengzhigou first, as is the official way.

But where there are clearly many authorities who teach and students who have been taught otherwise, there is quite simply NO reason to make them change, if (as I assume to be the case, having never received a contrary response to the question) Skritter is technically capable of accepting both orders. Furthermore, it baffles me how and why pie-lasters should care or even know that pie-firsters exist. Malilai2, having never written 方 with your stroke order, I can't say for sure, but during the past year or so, I presume that Skritter accepted it. It stands to reason then that you have been happily skrittering, writing your pie last, as is proper, blissfully unaware that elsewhere in this world there were others who were doing it differently than you. Only when this thread was posted did you learn of us, whereupon you were moved by that ugly side of human nature to inexplicable vitriol and the bizarre notion that "there are people who are not me and don't affect me but are writing the character wrong and they must be STOPPED." I find this troubling.

Nick, I must revise my original assertion ("I can't seem to recall anyone requesting that Skritter become more pedantic about stroke order") as there is now at least one such individual. But please assure me that this sideshow project of eliminating alternative stroke orders (and then debugging the problems that arise, as they did for 数) is in no way distracting from the more important work you are doing or preparing to do on the iOS app and the new example sentence system. Otherwise my confidence in the Team's ability to prioritize worthwhile goals would be badly shaken.

dbkluck, the problem is that people who are not pie-firsters or pie-lasters start off in Skritter by writing whatever first comes to mind and thus become pie-firsters, then later complain about us having taught it to them wrong when we could have taught it to them right. That, or they never realize. Few people use the stroke-by-stroke animation; more rely on corrections as they write. Later, when we implement better stroke order cues, this may change somewhat.

What stroke order for 方 is used by Japanese?

What about the option of strict vs. non-strict stroke order? Wasn't there such an option before?

What other stroke orders are likely to change in the (near) future?

dbkluck: stroke order does not distract from things like the iOS app. ;)

swimming: Japanese uses pie last. You can turn down your stroke order strictness in the study settings on the study page (the gear in the upper right) until it easily recognizes one stroke out of order, although it will still flash the other one blue. We don't have any stroke order changes lined up; we just make changes as new research comes up. In the past we've posted changes in advance, but never got much response.

Nick, that's a fair point. But is there no way the behavior I described above for 门 could be replicated? That is, accept the pie as a correct stroke, but flash the hengzhigou on the screen to indicate that it should have been written first, the way it flashes the dian when you write the shu first in 门？ That should be sufficient to communicate to learners the way they should do it.

The reason I'm being so persistent about this is that it really is extremely disruptive for me. I tend to practice on a very high retention rate (though I've fallen off the wagon on this somewhat recently), which means I spend a lot of time blowing through reviews at high speed and based just on muscle memory. On the wacom, I might be two or three strokes ahead by the time I realize skritter had an objection; on Android, due to the known bug whereby input is delayed by half a second or so, I could be four or five strokes ahead. So it really is a nontrivial hassle when I'm almost completely done with the character before I realize that skritter had an objection--especially one I don't even agree with--and I have to do it all over.

I suppose I could relearn with the new stroke order, but I have put hundreds of hours into building that muscle memory, and I frankly see no reason to break it down and start over because some government committee with too much time on its hands decided to publish a new policy decree. Of the Chinese I've spoken to who have even heard that there was a new stroke order published, all just roll their eyes and say they'll continue to write the pie first they way they were taught.

I read the "more info" on the "Stroke Order Strictness" setting in the study settings popup, but I'm still a little confused. Will lowering that setting solve my problem without inconveniencing others (ideally without introducing more problems for me)? And what does it mean that it will be harder to write with the stroke order strictness lowered? That seems kind of counterintuitive to me. Can you please explain?

****EDIT****

Seems like you answered most of my questions while I was writing this post, but if you could explain a bit some of the collateral consequences to lowering stroke order strictness, particularly why it is the case that "You can play around with different values in here, but it should actually be easier to write with a higher stroke order strictness", I'd be much obliged.

Because a higher stroke order strictness gives a better hint to Skritter of which stroke should come next, the recognizer is a little more lenient on the correct next stroke when you have higher strictness--a little less likely to mistakenly reject your squigs.

Hmm, so is it fair to say that the less strict it is about the order, the more strict it is about handwriting, and vice versa? That might be out of the frying pan and into the fire as far as writing quickly is concerned, but I'll play around with it and see how it works.

To the extent the issue is still live and under consideration, allow me to reiterate my position that the research uncovered in this thread has amply shown a legitimate difference of opinion exists about 方 and the decision to eliminate the alternative usage should be reversed.

It occurs to me that since for 99.9% of characters I do use the orthodox stroke order, it might actually be more efficient on the whole to set the stroke order strictness HIGHER and reap the benefits of more relaxed handwriting recognition for those 99.9%, and then just deal with characters containing 方 by cursing loudly. I'll experiment.

I am not in China, so I do not encounter too many native Chinese speakers. However, I met 5 native speakers yesterday and today and out of curiosity asked them how they write 方. They all write the pie third.

This is, of course, not a representative sample, but my conjecture is that most living Chinese write the pie third.

I encourage you to ask native speakers that you know and share the information with the rest of us.

If my hypothesis is correct, and a large fraction of the native Chinese speakers write the pie third, I think that this order this should be allowed by skritter.

Judging from the various tabs shown here http://sf.zdic.net/shufa/0127/bfc62f7f6314107a6763377308d907eb.html , it seems that most of the calligraphists in the past wrote the pie last if they wrote it in 草书 and 隶书, whereas in 楷书, they wrote the pie third.

I just reverted this to the old way, which is to say, order-agnostic. Everyone can read about it here: http://blog.skritter.com/2012/06/stroke-order-is-important.html

Thanks George!

Great move!! I believe the language belong to the people who use it and not self-appointed guardian of the language who dictate what is right or wrong.
A language will stop changing and varying only when no body is using it or in other words when it is dead.