Hi,

I just wonder if there's any rule or good role of thumb when the tone of the 2nd character changes to neutral.

I thought maybe repetition like 熱鬧 rènao, 糊涂 hútu, or 姐姐 jiějie but then there's 浪漫 làngmàn, 處理 chǔlǐ or 僅僅 jǐnjǐn.

Then, why does 維護 wéihù keep the 4th tone while 聰明 cōngming, 凉快 liángkuai, 清楚 qīngchu, and 糧食 liángshi change to 5th?

And qù and lái are most confusing:
進來 jìnlai
下去 xiàqu
下來 xiàlái
過去 guòqù
過來 guòlai

Thanks for any ideas,
Chris

The complete conditions for change to neutral tone are complex, but here are some general rules for the change of a second syllable to neutral tone.

a) The second syllable is a repetition of the first syllable:

tai4tai4 → tai4tai 太太 Mrs
di4di4 → di4di 弟弟 younger brother

b) The second syllable is a suffix that does not contribute a meaning to the word. This includes the suffix 子 zi3, and the directional suffixes 头/頭 tou2, 面 mian4, and 边/遍 bian1:

hai2zi3 → hai2zi 孩子 child
li3tou2 → li3tou 里头 inside

c) The meaning of the second syllable is the same as or overlaps with the meaning of
the first syllable:

yi1fu2 → yi1fu 衣服 clothing

yi1 衣 clothing
fu2 服 clothing

shi4qing2 → shi4qing 事情 matter/situation

shi4 事 situation
qing2 情 situation

The second syllable retains its tone when it adds to and expands the meaning of the first syllable. Examples include:

xue2qi1 学期 semester = xue2 学 study + qi1 期 interval
zuo4fa3 作法 method of doing = zuo4 作 do + fa3 法 method
kan4wan2 看完 finish reading = kan4 看 read + wan2 完 finish

Source: Modern Chinese Grammar - C. Ross (2006), Chapter 2.4

Wow 范博涵, that's really helpful. I've always wondered about these. I've also wondered if I really should mark it as "don't know" on Skritter if I use the character's tone rather than neutral. Any thoughts?

I typically check these as "Correct".
I remember someone saying that in fact neutral tones appear only in Beijing and generally using them is considered sloppy.
But I didn't have anyone confirm that.

I personally think that neutral tones are sloppy and choose to seldom use them. Usage of the neutral tone in mainland China is pretty inconsistent for lots of words. This is one area in which I favor Taiwanese Mandarin because they rarely do the neutral tone switch except for a few words such as 弟弟，爸爸, 他们, and some others, but there aren't that many

Thank you, 范博涵 - an excellent explanation. Still, I do see that the topic is more complex, as 僅僅 jǐnjǐn and 往往 wǎngwǎng (at least according to Skritter) don't change the tone. Also, 護士 hùshi compared to 碩士 shuòshì is strange. Maybe the hint to inconsistency contains some truth. Nevertheless, now I only have to remember the exceptions to the rules - much easier! By the way, I wasn't aware that tones don't change in Taiwan. Thanks for that information. Perhaps I'll click 'correct' more often from now on ;-)

克里斯, there is a separate rule for consecutive third tones. When there are two third tones in a row, the first one becomes a second tone, and the second one becomes a half-third tone (which only falls and does not rise). When there are more than two third tones in a row all but the last one become a second tone.

ni3hao3 → ni2hao3 你好 hello
xi3zao3 → xi2zao3 洗澡 bathe/shower
da3sao3 → da2sao3 打扫 clean

You may want to listen to http://popupchinese.com/lessons/speaking-practice/tone-sandhi-two-third-tones and read the comments for more detailed information.

Furthermore, there are specific tone change rules for the following two words:

1. 不 (bu4) is fourth tone except when followed by another fourth tone, when it becomes second tone.

bu4dui4 → bu2dui4 不对 incorrect

2. 一 (yi1) is a first tone when alone, second tone when followed by a fourth tone, and fourth tone when followed by any other tone.

yi1ge4 → yi2ge4 一个
yi1ci4 → yi2ci4 一次
yi1ban4 → yi2ban4 一半
yi1ban1 → yi4ban1 一般
yi1mao2 → yi4mao2 一毛
yi1huir3 → yi4huir3 一会儿

And something I omitted from the explanation above:

"In Beijing and northern China, certain syllables lose their original tone and are pronounced as neutral tone. This tone change does not occur in Taiwan, where all syllables retain their original tones."

護士 hùshì and 碩士 shuòshì are both all 4th tones.

(most information from Wikipedia and Modern Chinese Grammar, with some additions and extra examples of my own)

"In Beijing and northern China, certain syllables lose their original tone and are pronounced as neutral tone. This tone change does not occur in Taiwan, where all syllables retain their original tones."

Agreed. We are learning about this in my modern grammar and semantics class right now. Much of northern China is more "sensitive" to the use of both pronounced syllables or neutral tone, as it changes the meaning.

An awesome example is

北京人- Bei3jing1ren2 （Peking Man) vs. Bei3jing1ren (Someone from Beijing)

I would be interested to hear what other people think about the 下來,下去, 進來 etc. Both Wenlin and Pleco have the second character listed as neutral.

It makes sense that they are neutral. It is also how most people seem to say all of these words, and the stress of action (and the main meaning) occurs on the first syllable in all cases.

My Chinese teacher (from Xi'an) disputed this today. She stated that certain syllables losing their original tone is a standard feature of Mandarin Chinese and applicable to the whole of China. That is, it should be spoken as such no matter where in China you are, but the fact is that in many places (in particular Taiwan, but even in Beijing, as I can barely understand my wife's parents) people speak their own dialect.

Those suffixes like 子 and 头 that do not contribute a meaning to the word are read as neutral tone. This fact is well documented. I just want to add that 原子, 瓜子, 莲子 are not neutral tones, because these 子's do have a meaning. A slight variation of this concept can be seen in words like 灯笼 (dēng long) and 棉花 (mián hua). 灯笼 is neutral tone because it is not a cage. Also 棉花 is not a king of flower. So, thinking along this line of thought, I'd guess that 护士 is neutral tone because of this same reason, that it's not considered a kind of 士. The word 护士 was coined when the story of Florence Nightingale was spread to China. At that time, people do consider that 护士 is a noble person, having the same status of 烈士, 战士 or 博士. But, nowadays in China, 护士 is just any person employed to look after the elderlies in the family. Anybody can claim to be a 护士. No formal training or qualification is required. And so the neutral tone.

So, instead of thinking that neutral tones are sloppy (in the sense of loose, careless), I do think that in order to master the neutral tones, one must pay extra attentions to the meaning of the individual characters in the words and understand the significance of each character plays.

太太, 弟弟 are neutral tone and they are nouns that denote a kind of human relationship.
看看, 走走 are neutral tone and they are verbs.
僅僅, 往往 are not neutral tone and they are adverbs.

According to the 现代汉语词典 (the reference dictionary for 普通话水平测试), the pinyin of 下來,下去, 進來 are xià·lái，xià·qù and jìn·lái respectively。 There's a dot between the 1st and 2nd characters, and the 2nd character still has a tone mark. The explanation for this kind of marking given by the dictionary is 一般轻读、间或重读的音节。Then the 普通话水平测试实施纲要 (the syllabus for that test) further explains that for these kind of words, the stress is always on the first character. The second character is always lighter than the first character but may not be as light as a neutral tone. So, straightly speaking, these are not neutral tones (neutral tone is 轻声， the dictionary says 轻读）. But, from the practical point, one should simply consider them as neutral tones.

@范博涵 in Taiwan people usually don't do the neutral tone switch when they speak Mandarin and I'm sure there are tons of Chinese teachers in Taiwan who would have a different opinion

@范博涵

I have found the first rule of learning Chinese is to separate Taiwanese and Mainlandese in your head. In my head I always say 國語 and 普通话/汉语. Just separate them now. As long as you view them as one monolithic "Mandarin" you will never reach a consensus and will consistently be listening to "Teacher A says this. Teacher B says that."

If your teacher is from 西安 then you are learning 汉语/普通话. To be melodramatic, 现代汉语 is your god. I would recommend ignoring the vast majority of things out of Taiwan. Later on, after you have 汉语/普通话 down, you can go learn the Taiwanese variations if you want to/feel they are useful in your personal situation. They are equally valid. In that regard, it is the same as learning 汉字/漢字. I went back and learned 繁體字 AFTER I was already to the skill level where I could read everyday books in 简化字。 I am not saying Taiwanese is inherently right or wrong. It is different, though. I personally have never lost and don't plan on ever losing my neutral tone. I prefer the sound of the neutral tone.

I honestly believe people don't like to admit that difference for political reasons. This language is trapped in so much politics that it is mind numbingly irritating to me.

west316,

(1.) Agree that finding a teacher from 陕西 is really good idea, but better rural than 西安。I love that accent！(东北 is more standard by the way, 哈尔滨 is where some of the best CCTV moderators come from.)

(2.) Taiwanese or 閩南話 also good lah, although mutually unintelligible with 普通話.

(3.) Taiwan's accent is widely admired and sometimes even imitated by mainlanders, no real political problems.

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My recommendation is to listen a lot to Taiwan accent and 一步一步 learn how to drop the neutral tones.

I have a slightly different opinion than West16 does. I think that 国语 and 普通话 are the exact same language, with some regional differences. I actually heard a mainland Chinese man use the term "国语" multiple times to refer to Chinese, and there was absolutely no discussion about Taiwan.
I actually think that British and American English are more different than mainland/Taiwan-style Mandarin Chinese, and I definitely regard British/American English as the same language.